What do Seinfeld, heavy metal, existentialism, and free markets have in common? For William Irwin, they are all ways of thinking about some of philosophy’s oldest questions — how we should live, what it means to be free, and how we become ourselves. In this interview, we discuss philosophy in popular culture, Metallica and Black Sabbath, existentialism and individual freedom, capitalism and consumerism, and what it means to live an authentic life.
About the Guest
William Irwin is Professor of Philosophy at King’s College in Pennsylvania and the originator of the Philosophy and Popular Culture genre of books, beginning with Seinfeld and Philosophy. He is the author of The Free Market Existentialist and the libertarian novel Free Dakota, and an APPA Certified Philosophical Counselor in private practice.
Interview
Simon Sarevski: You’ve spent much of your career bringing philosophy into places where people might not expect to find it — from Seinfeld and The Simpsons to The Matrix, Metallica, and Black Sabbath. What can popular culture sometimes reveal about philosophical questions that traditional philosophy cannot?
William Irwin: Philosophical texts can be dull and mistakenly seem irrelevant. In contrast, stories, songs, shows, and games make ideas and issues come to life. Classic literature and arthouse films can do this too, sometimes even better. The advantage of discussing popular culture is that people are already interested and often have already thought deeply about it.
Seinfeld famously presented itself as a “show about nothing,” yet Seinfeld and Philosophy helped launch what became an entire genre of books exploring philosophy through popular culture. Looking back, what was it about the “show about nothing” that made it such fertile ground for philosophy?
William Irwin: Philosophy like Seinfeld can seem to be about nothing, but it’s really about everything. Everyone is a philosopher in the most basic sense, trying to figure out how to live. Seinfeld helps us realize the philosophy of everyday life that we engage in simply by not taking things for granted and instead asking questions. Philosophy has a reputation for dealing with big questions, but it’s more often concerned with small, picky questions the way Seinfeld is, like “Is soup a meal?” Much like philosophy, Seinfeld is concerned with questions and issues of what it means to live a good life and what kind of person you want to be or become. Sometimes this can seem like just manners and etiquette, but it’s the glue that holds a society together. Woody Allen often deals with grand themes of love and death in his feature movies, but Seinfeld as a recurring sitcom could be obsessed with the little but important things that make up the fabric of life and society.
——— Related: Bosko Karajov: From Nozick to Spider-Man ———
Can popular culture genuinely change the way we think about philosophical questions — or do we sometimes risk taking the philosophy too seriously and forgetting that it’s also meant to entertain us?
William Irwin: I don’t think we should look to popular culture for answers, but it can help us get interested in philosophical questions by giving us stories and images to consider and discuss.
When it comes to philosophy in popular culture, V for Vendetta is the movie that, for me, hits all the right notes. What would be your own picks?
William Irwin: I’d say The Matrix is the most complete piece of popular culture for raising philosophical issues. I also love Fight Club in that regard. V for Vendetta is great from the perspective of liberty. In the liberty vein, I also like Legends of the Fall.
—— Related: Wonder Woman and the Wonders of Prosperity ——
In an earlier interview, Sean Malone and I touched on our fascination with heroes in popular culture. Why do we admire fictional heroes who refuse to conform, take risks, and stand up for what they believe in, yet remain far more cautious in our own lives?
William Irwin: Real life is usually much more complicated than fiction, and we have personal considerations like our families. Real life occasionally provides such heroic models, though, like Martin Luther King Jr. and Socrates. By the way, I’d love to be involved in bringing a dramatization of the Socrates story to the big screen. Maybe Sean Malone can help!
You’ve written extensively about Metallica and Black Sabbath. Is heavy metal particularly philosophical — or do you just see philosophy everywhere?
William Irwin: I always have philosophy glasses on, and so I tend to see philosophy everywhere. But I do think that metal tends to be more philosophical than many other genres of music, probably because metal tends to deal in dark themes. When your songs focus on rebellion, religion, death, despair, war, addiction, etc., it’s hard not to be philosophical.
With Iron Maiden being my favorite band, I have to ask why Metallica and Black Sabbath, but no Maiden?
William Irwin: Iron Maiden was my first concert in 1985 for the Power Slave tour, so I’m a longtime Maiden fan. I’d love to have an Iron Maiden and Philosophy book for my series. For the publisher it’s always understandably a matter of sales potential. For some reason, music centered books tend to sell less well than books about movies and shows. Maybe someday I’ll convince the publisher to take a chance on Iron Maiden and Philosophy.
From popular culture and music to your broader philosophical work, existentialism seems to be one of the threads connecting many of your interests. It is often associated with absurdity, alienation, and despair — but what does existentialism actually have to offer as a philosophy for living?
William Irwin: Existentialism is a philosophy that focuses on the existing individual (as opposed to the group); it’s a philosophy of freedom and responsibility, of optimistic toughness and individual authenticity that says, “No excuses.” For the existentialist, happiness involves making ourselves into unique individuals and giving expression to that uniqueness. The genuine or authentic individual does not live by a script dictated by God or government. He or she refuses to be told what to read, what kind of job to get, what age to marry by, how many children to have, what kind of car to drive, what to eat, drink, or smoke. The authentic individual defines himself.
Historically, existentialism has been associated much more closely with the political left. Yet in The Free Market Existentialist, you argue that its emphasis on individual freedom and responsibility points in almost the opposite direction. Where does this great divide come from?
William Irwin: Existentialists tend to celebrate artists for their creativity and risk taking, but existentialists should also celebrate entrepreneurs for the same reason. I mean, who’s afraid of the free market? Fear of the free market is just fear that people can’t be trusted to think and act for themselves. Existentialism has always appealed to radicals, and I think it naturally leads to a radical defense of free markets. Free markets, though, have wrongly been seen as something conservative, and lots of pressure has been put on academics and intellectuals to conform to leftist political thought. This was certainly true in the heyday of existentialism in postwar France, and sadly it is true in most places today.
At the same time, you argue for “capitalism without consumerism.” If existentialism is about defining ourselves rather than allowing ourselves to be defined by outside forces, is consumerism a threat to that freedom?
William Irwin: By consumerism I mean the addictive drive and desire to have the latest and best products in order to derive self-worth and to signal worth to others. So if a person is in the grips of consumerism, it is a hindrance to their freedom. If I’m flipping through the IKEA catalog wondering, “What kind of dining set defines me as a person?” then I’m not as free as I could be. I’ll quote Tyler Durden from Fight Club again: “We have jobs we hate to buy shit we don’t need.” The bottom line is that we each have to get in charge of our own desires and self-definition.
But can capitalism really be separated from consumerism so neatly? Great entrepreneurs don’t simply satisfy existing wants — they create things we didn’t know we wanted. Isn’t creating new desires part of what makes capitalism so successful?
William Irwin: Adam Smith was aware of this issue from the beginning. He noted the foolishness of desiring trinkets and gadgets like a slightly better, more expensive watch that won’t actually get me to arrive on time more reliably. We’re never going to get everyone to give up on materialistic luxury goods and fad products, and some people have genuine desires for items that seem frivolous to me — like fancy cars and the newest technology. As long as a person chooses authentically, they can overcome consumerism. It’s OK to have desires, but it’s not OK for your desires to have you. Think about the aroma of Cinabon! And it’s perfectly fine for entrepreneurs to make products that spark desires. I consider myself a part-time entrepreneur in writing books that I hope people will want.
You’ve spent your career thinking about some very different-looking subjects — existentialism, capitalism, popular culture, heavy metal, meaning, and individual choice. Has thinking about these questions for decades changed your own answer to the basic philosophical question of what constitutes a life well-lived?
William Irwin: As a recovering misanthrope and loner, I’ve definitely come to more greatly appreciate the importance of living with other people in community. Family and friends have always been central to my life, but I’ve become more Buddhist with age. I see and feel the suffering of other people and want to help alleviate it.
With all that said, what can we expect from you next? Iron Maiden and Captain America, perhaps?
William Irwin: My friend Mark White has written a terrific book called The Virtues of Captain America, so I think he has that base covered. Iron Maiden is a real possibility. Recently, I’ve begun work as a philosophical counselor, offering an alternative to traditional therapy. Anyone who would like to learn more about it, can check out my counseling website.
If someone came away from this interview wanting to think a little more philosophically about life, what books — besides your own, of course — would you tell them to read?
William Irwin: Two very short books I would recommend to anyone are Tolstoy’s The Death of Ivan Ilyich and Hesse’s Siddhartha.
This wouldn’t be a Strixly interview if I didn’t ask: How do you find freedom in an unfree world?
William Irwin: No matter the current state of the world, the battle for freedom is fought first in your own mind. That’s where you get free and stay free. As the Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl said in Man’s Search for Meaning, “Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms—to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”